Is it safe to say that when the South peaks in artistry, they peak higher than any other region? [Archive]

Dr Doom

02-17-2011, 06:22 PM

Titangraph Alert!

As we all know, if you look at the quantity of quality releases of each region, the South suffers a major blowback from all the wack artists they have. But I've come to realize that when a Southern artist peaks, or reaches a high, they reach a high of artistry that almost no artist from any other region can touch. Case in point, think of Outkast, think of Goodie Mob (particularly Cee-Lo), think of CunninLynguists. Despite coming from the "damned south" I would say the music released by these artists are vastly superior to the gross of HipHop releases.

We all know about Outkast achieving greatness with Aquemini, but in particular ATLiens, a mellow spaced-out vibe album. And of course there's the experimental nature of Speakerboxxx/The Love Below, allowing Big Boi and 3K to delve into their own artistry. I mean, people tend to speak very lowly of the direction 3K took (admittedly he hadn't perfected his style) but who else could pull off songs as perfect as Hey Ya or Roses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3USQRmVy0uc

Same goes for Cee-Lo. Look at how much he achieved with Crazy. People might remain to consider Gnarls Barkley a one hit wonder, but with Fuck You he proved once again that it wasn't a lucky hit, the man has sheer talent to make great and appealing music. And that is his rather straight forward accessible work! Because his more experimental work on The Soul Machine and His Perfect Imperfections are just as great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7UiPOTfUZU

And then there's the unparrallelled creativity of the CunninLynguists. A Piece Of Strange was one of the most unique concept albums in HipHop for a while, and with Kno's Death Is Silent and their upcoming Oneirology they stay in a zone of haunting concepts far above the egocentric gangsterisms of the average rapper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xi_amm31Wg

Hell, before Lil Wayne became a wannabe rockstar junkie he still dropped Tha Carter II, an album that was peculiarly inspired in places (think Shooter). All in all, while the south gets shitloads of flack (most of it deserved) for weak rappers and dumbed down shit, isn't it also true that in terms of (successful) experimentation, and rising above the artistic limitations of the genre, the south has every other region beat? Discuss!

turtleman

02-17-2011, 06:33 PM

The South got the two GOAT duos in UGK and OutKast. I need to download a Cee-Lo album.

Arii Price

02-17-2011, 06:35 PM

I agree of course, but I'm biased. Souf >>>>

Capo

02-17-2011, 07:54 PM

The Mid-West has the south beat in terms of artistic peaking.

Arii Price

02-17-2011, 07:58 PM

The Mid-West has the south beat in terms of artistic peaking.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

KTULU

02-17-2011, 08:00 PM

I think we're over-rating the South's peaks because we don't expect such a backwards and retarded culture to accomplish anything even remotely impressive, culturally.

Capo

02-17-2011, 08:11 PM

Chapter

02-17-2011, 08:16 PM

I think that's arguable. The Midwest puts up some decent comp and even from the East Coast you have your DOOMs and Ghostfaces and Wyclefs.

Dr Doom

02-17-2011, 09:44 PM

Is Outkast at it's highest level really any better than eminem or kanye at their highest level? Throw in that Lupe character many like to hype up, and I don't see how the South wins this. You also have artists like Bone Thugs and Common...

Yes, at their highest level Outkast beats Eminem and Kanye, lol. Lupe is definitely creative (mostly in concepts), but in execution he's still very much a straight forward rap artist.

Jinx Moneypenny

02-17-2011, 10:41 PM

I think we're over-rating the South's peaks because we don't expect such a backwards and retarded culture to accomplish anything even remotely impressive, culturally.

I was going to seriously respond, and then I read this, and now... gotta go, ROFL.

Jinx Moneypenny

02-17-2011, 10:42 PM

Is Capo really trying to put Eminem's artistry up there with Kanye's? Or OutKast's? DUDE. Yeah, you know what...

KTULU

02-17-2011, 10:45 PM

Kanye and Outkast are mad overrated.

Jinx Moneypenny

02-17-2011, 10:57 PM

Kanye and Outkast are mad overrated.

Not even. I disagree damnit.

KTULU

02-17-2011, 11:06 PM

Bruh, if you don't think Kanye is overrated right now, I don't know what to tell you. They had to summon Quincy Jones from his sarcophagus to put that ***** in his place.

Capo

02-18-2011, 12:43 AM

Is Capo really trying to put Eminem's artistry up there with Kanye's? Or OutKast's? DUDE. Yeah, you know what...

Im confused as to what makes outkast and kanye anymore creative than eminem.

Capo

02-18-2011, 12:50 AM

Im almost at the point of throwing outkast into the "overrated southern artist" category. I still consider myself a fan, but during that best album tournament i went back and re-listened to most of their catalogue and that shit was lukewarm. Half the time 3 stacks is off beat...'

Like KTULU said, just because they don't fall victim to the typical southern rapper stereotypes, i think listeners overhype the music.

Arii Price

02-18-2011, 01:37 AM

Eminem plus Artistry in the same sentence dont mix.

Capo

02-18-2011, 02:01 AM

Eminem plus Artistry in the same sentence dont mix.

Depends what your definition of artistry is. Some people consider "hey ya" artistic expression but i just consider it a shitty pop song. On the other hand a song like "stan" is elite artistry IMO. While I personally didn't like the album, i know plenty of eminem fans that consider the concept album 'Relapse' clever artistry as well.

Rorschach

02-18-2011, 02:10 AM

If you look hard enough, its pretty rounded in all regions. Even the West got dope cats that push the boundaries in the underground.

Dr Doom

02-18-2011, 06:16 AM

If you look hard enough, its pretty rounded in all regions. Even the West got dope cats that push the boundaries in the underground.

Yes, but I'm looking at the peaks. Every region got his highs, but I claim that when the south reaches a high, they tend to go a bit higher than everyone else.

KidFlash

02-18-2011, 12:34 PM

As of now, in my opinion, the south is up there with highs. They have the most recently highs too. Now they might have a few crazy perfect hip-hop songs like Ms. Jackson, Cell Therapy etc, but the amount of 4.5/5 (near classic) material is really low compared to the other regions. But what does the amount of those songs exactly mean? That doesn't make up for the lack of 4-4.5 albums you can listen to on a regular basis, besides the obvious classics. They still have a lot to catch up imo

Is Outkast at it's highest level really any better than eminem or kanye at their highest level? Throw in that Lupe character many like to hype up, and I don't see how the South wins this. You also have artists like Bone Thugs and Common...

Eminem Kanye Lupe Bone Thugs Common? ... What about Biggie, NWA, Dre, Nas, Jay-Z, Rakim, Wu-Tang... Lupe... smh

Arii Price

02-18-2011, 05:15 PM

The south has higher artistic peaks, along with better music artists overall in my opinion. They undoubtedly have the most charisma, personality, and entertainment value in comparison to every other region by far. They also have the most well-rounded base of MC's that are all high quality when put up against their coastal counterparts.

Capo

02-18-2011, 07:24 PM

I see Arii hasn't lost his delusionality.

Capo

02-18-2011, 07:27 PM

As of now, in my opinion, the south is up there with highs. They have the most recently highs too. Now they might have a few crazy perfect hip-hop songs like Ms. Jackson, Cell Therapy etc, but the amount of 4.5/5 (near classic) material is really low compared to the other regions. But what does the amount of those songs exactly mean? That doesn't make up for the lack of 4-4.5 albums you can listen to on a regular basis, besides the obvious classics. They still have a lot to catch up imo

Eminem Kanye Lupe Bone Thugs Common? ... What about Biggie, NWA, Dre, Nas, Jay-Z, Rakim, Wu-Tang... Lupe... smh

Well, you rattled off artists from different regions instead of focusing on one. So immediately you lose.

The East has always been the mecca of hip hop. That's a given...so it's pointless to just keep saying the east is the best at this, the east is the best at that. I mentioned midwest artists because that seemed like a good place to start in debunking Doom's point(s). If I would have just said biggie, jay, nas, wu-tang, etc., it would have been no contest.

NJ76

02-26-2011, 01:49 AM

Scarface drags your whole argument down a lot by making the same mundane album again and again.

Dr Doom

02-26-2011, 06:23 AM

lol, I'm talking about individual artist peaks so Scarface doesn't necessarily hurt the argument. Neither do Souljah Boy or Ludacris (ol' I-can't-make-a-consistent-album-to-save-my-life ass guy).

Agent Zero

02-26-2011, 04:13 PM

I think the East is superior when it comes to artistic ''peaks''. Think of what Lauryn Hill did with The Miseducation or what Budden has been doing with the Mood Muzik series not to mention the masters of pushing artistic boundaries and creating innovative sounds, The Roots.

Dr Doom

02-26-2011, 05:10 PM

KidFlash

02-27-2011, 11:18 PM

NJ76

02-28-2011, 12:34 AM

Budden raised the bar for mixtapes. He has a legit point b

Dr Doom

04-24-2011, 08:52 PM

Saw a guest lurking in this thread and decided to up it just to name drop Oneirology, which I feel safe to say supports my point for 2011 so far (but the Beastie Boys might change that).

KidFlash

04-24-2011, 10:10 PM

Yeah as of now I agree with this thread. The south has been the one with the most buyable music last year and this year. The 2 best releases this year are also from the south.

Capo

04-25-2011, 12:10 AM

Yeah as of now I agree with this thread. The south has been the one with the most buyable music last year and this year. The 2 best releases this year are also from the south.

how does this reasoning support the thread?

Broddie

04-25-2011, 01:55 AM

Yeah as of now I agree with this thread. The south has been the one with the most buyable music last year and this year. The 2 best releases this year are also from the south.

Oneirology being one and the other being???

Dr Doom

04-25-2011, 08:00 AM

ReturnOf4Eva probably.

Agent Zero

04-25-2011, 05:02 PM

Fuck a region. Which artist do y'all think had the highest peak? Who made the illest shit (most classic songs & verses) in their prime?

turtleman

04-25-2011, 06:10 PM

Fuck a region. Which artist do y'all think had the highest peak? Who made the illest shit (most classic songs & verses) in their prime?

Eminem was straight untouchable in his prime, so he's definitely a top candidate. And also, I'm one of the 2% of people in TC/Planet that still thinks Illmatic is Nas' best album easily.

Broddie

04-25-2011, 07:14 PM

Nas was on a fucking roll from '94 - '96. Dude was borderline untouchable with the classic verses I mean aside from Illmatic you had Mo Money Mo Muder, Fast Life, Understanding, Life is Like A Dice Game,Verbal Intercourse, Affirmative Action (original and RMX), Eye for An Eye, Silent Murder, Street Dreams (RMX) etc. I mean this is the reason so many people felt he fell off afterwards cause at that point he really was the GOAT. As far as album catalog Cube had that shit IMO with his first 3 solos especially (I love Lethal Injection though don't get it twisted) AND Straight Outta Compton.

Capo

04-25-2011, 07:31 PM

Eminem was straight untouchable in his prime,
.

The obvious and correct answer.

I would have said Jay-Z, but his career never really had a real low and while reasonable doubt was a 10/10 classic, volume 1 and 2 were lukewarm. I don't think he ever had a period that matched eminem from 1999-2003.

Broddie

04-25-2011, 07:44 PM

I like Eminem but give me a break. Redman from '92 - '96 >>> Eminem during '99 - '03. Hell Ghostface from '93 - '97 >>> Eminem ('99 - '03).

Broddie

04-25-2011, 07:44 PM

Dead Wrong still has one of the dopest verses in history though I'll give the Em from that period that much.

Capo

04-25-2011, 07:53 PM

I like Eminem but give me a break. Redman from '92 - '96 >>> Eminem during '99 - '03. Hell Ghostface from '93 - '97 >>> Eminem ('99 - '03).

Take a look at em's resume from 1999-2003:

*3 arguable solo classics
*8 Mile Soundtrack
*Verses on Devil's Night (all classic)
*Classic collaborations:
- Forgot about Dre w/ dre
- What's the Difference w/ dre
- Dead Wrong w/ biggie
- Hellbound w/ masta ace
- Off the wall w/ redman
- Renegade w/ Jay-Z
- What the beat w/ royce and method man
- Don't Approach me w/ xzibit
- Obie Trice's Cheers (lady, we all die one day, etc.)
- Patiently Waiting w/ 50
- Don't Push Me w/ 50
etc. etc. etc.

Plus all those diss tracks he had (hit 'em up, girls, the sauce, canibitch, nail in the coffin)

cHIVe

04-25-2011, 07:57 PM

In terms of one artist on a run it's Em to me. Dude was murdering shit left and right from 99-03. Jay had a phase like this from like late 01 to 03, but it was only two years.
But then again, Andre was on fire for the first three or four Kast album, although he never did many guest verses. Nas from 94-96 is up there too.
Tough choice, but I go with Em.

Agent Zero

04-25-2011, 08:23 PM

Imma have to go with Rawkus era Mos Def. From 98-03 NO ONE had more classic verses and songs, everything he was on from Travellin Man, his verses on Blackstar, BOBS and the Rawkus compilations Mos Def killed everything. Black Thought from 06-now is the GOAT in the making, i cant recall the last time i heard an average verse from him.

Broddie

04-25-2011, 08:42 PM

Take a look at em's resume from 1999-2003:

*3 arguable solo classics
*8 Mile Soundtrack
*Verses on Devil's Night (all classic)
*Classic collaborations:
- Forgot about Dre w/ dre
- What's the Difference w/ dre
- Dead Wrong w/ biggie
- Hellbound w/ masta ace
- Off the wall w/ redman
- Renegade w/ Jay-Z
- What the beat w/ royce and method man
- Don't Approach me w/ xzibit
- Obie Trice's Cheers (lady, we all die one day, etc.)
- Patiently Waiting w/ 50
- Don't Push Me w/ 50
etc. etc. etc.

Plus all those diss tracks he had (hit 'em up, girls, the sauce, canibitch, nail in the coffin)

Redman ('93 -'96)

*3 arguable solo classics

classic non album songs and collabos:

Funkorama
How High w/Meth
Throw Ya Hands in The Air w/Cypress Hill, MC Eiht and Erick Sermon
Headbanger w/EPMD
Got My Mind Made Up w/Pac, Daz and Meth
Flipmode Squad Meets Def Squad
How's That w/ Keith Murray and Erick Sermon
Yeah w/ Keith Murray, Erick Sermon & Busta Rhymes
The Points w/Biggie, Bone Thugs, Digable Planets, Heltah Skeltah, Big Mike, Coolio, Buckshot, Busta, Jamal from Illegal and everybody and their momma
Somethin 4 Da Honeyz (RMX) w/Montell Jordan
Nuthin But the Gangsta w/MC Eiht & Spice 1

etc.

I love SSLP and MMLP as much as the next guy. They are incredible albums and yes Em killed features like mad at that point but I honestly do NOT feel that quality wise the albums nor the features were at a higher peak than any other hip hop released from '99 to '03. However that is just a testament to how fucking brilliant the mainstream scene was back then compared to how pathetic it is today. I truly am glad that I was lucky enough to live in the era where there was literally some classic hip hop premiering on the radio at least every 2 weeks.

Capo

04-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Redman ('93 -'96)

*3 arguable solo classics

classic non album songs and collabos:

Funkorama
How High w/Meth
Throw Ya Hands in The Air w/Cypress Hill, MC Eiht and Erick Sermon
Headbanger w/EPMD
Got My Mind Made Up w/Pac, Daz and Meth
Flipmode Squad Meets Def Squad
How's That w/ Keith Murray and Erick Sermon
Yeah w/ Keith Murray, Erick Sermon & Busta Rhymes
The Points w/Biggie, Bone Thugs, Digable Planets, Heltah Skeltah, Big Mike, Coolio, Buckshot, Busta, Jamal from Illegal and everybody and their momma
Somethin 4 Da Honeyz (RMX) w/Montell Jordan
Nuthin But the Gangsta w/MC Eiht & Spice 1

etc.

I love SSLP and MMLP as much as the next guy. They are incredible albums and yes Em killed features like mad at that point but I honestly do NOT feel that quality wise the albums nor the features were at a higher peak than any other hip hop released from '99 to '03. However that is just a testament to how fucking brilliant the mainstream scene was back then compared to how pathetic it is today. I truly am glad that I was lucky enough to live in the era where there was literally some classic hip hop premiering on the radio at least every 2 weeks.

I've never seen someonme call Dare iz a Darkside a "classic." It's a 4/5 for me. Whut? The album was released in '92, so i guess you're arguing from '92-'96. Redman is one of my favorites, so im not going to disagree that during that time period he was an elite rapper. But I still don't think he's seeing eminem during slim's "peak."

I think you're selling eminem short saying that a lot of rappers were spitting on his level or close to it during that time period. NOBODY was spitting like he was....classic verse after classic verse. I'd put Jay's career as whole over em's, but not even Jay was seeing Marshall during those years. Nas was not spitting on em's level, nor was mos def or any other elite rapper. I can't think of one wack eminem verse from that time period. If you know one, please share.

Plus, if you factor in commerical success, it will only add to the fact that no rapper had a run liike em did from 99-2003, or no rapper peaked as high.

Rorschach

04-25-2011, 09:04 PM

Fuck a region. Which artist do y'all think had the highest peak? Who made the illest shit (most classic songs & verses) in their prime?

As a Wu head, I'm obligated to say RZA during the 36 Chambers/Original 5 Solo album run. But thats producing.

As for emceeing, I like the Nas, Mos Def, and Eminem periods mentioned, and Black Thought has just been killing it since Game Theory. One of my favorite recent run's tho was Slug from You Can't Imagine-Felt 2-The Sad Clown/Happy Clown EPs-Strickly Leakage-When Life Gives You Lemons. Great run of shit loads of quality material in only 3 years.

Broddie

04-25-2011, 09:07 PM

I've never seen someonme call Dare iz a Darkside a "classic." It's a 4/5 for me. Whut? The album was released in '92, so i guess you're arguing from '92-'96. Redman is one of my favorites, so im not going to disagree that during that time period he was an elite rapper. But I still don't think he's seeing eminem during slim's "peak."

I think you're selling eminem short saying that a lot of rappers were spitting on his level or close to it during that time period. NOBODY was spitting like he was....classic verse after classic verse. I'd put Jay's career as whole over em's, but not even Jay was seeing Marshall during those years. I can't think of one wack eminem verse from that time period. If you know one, please share.

Plus, if you factor in commerical success, it will only add to the fact that no rapper had a run liike em did from 99-2003, or no rapper peaked as high.

Yeah I meant '92 - '96 as originally posted in my other post and yes many have considered Dare a classic some even think it's his best effort. For my money it's always been Whut?!? but I digress. Mos Def and Pharoahe Monch were killing verses a lot better than Em back in '99 I'd say and from '02 to '03 I don't think there was anybody in the mainstream seeing Jigger I mean really relisten to the best shit on BP2 and Black Album or the S. Carter mixtape it was like '96 - '98 Jay had rewoken up all over again. Nas lit a fire under that ***** for sure. I actually became a fan again because of his work during that time after writing him off during '99 -'00. I can't think of a wack Em verse from that era either but I could think of many that I liked far better. This is indeed why I said "quality wise" from a commercial standpoint nobody in hip hop will ever reach Eminem's sales peak unless their name rhymes with Shoe Pock. I think DMX with album 3 was the only other one that came close.

Capo

04-25-2011, 09:12 PM

Yeah I meant '92 - '96 as originally posted in my other post and yes many have considered Dare a classic some even think it's his best effort. For my money it's always been Whut?!? but I digress. Mos Def and Pharoahe Monch were killing verses a lot better than Em back in '99 I'd say and from '02 to '03 I don't think there was anybody in the mainstream seeing Jigger I mean really relisten to the best shit on BP2 and Black Album it was like '96 - '98 Jay had rewoken up all over again. Nas lit a fire under that ***** for sure. I can't think of a wack Em verse from that era either but I could think of many that I liked far better. This is indeed why I said "quality wise" from a commercial standpoint nobody in hip hop will ever reach Eminem's sales peak unless their name rhymes with Shoe Pock. I think DMX with album 3 was the only other one that came close.

If we call em/red's albums a wash and their guest appearances a wash (which i still think em wins, but whatever,) what seperates marshall from reggie is eminem also had a featured movie (8 mile) and a resulting dope soundtrack. He was also executive producer and a huge part of two albums (Devils Night and Cheers) that were both commercially successful and highly praised from a quality stand point.

I can't think of another rapper that released that much quality in such a short span. 3 solo albums, a movie soundtrack, and two "posse" albums. Plus being featured and stealing the show on three legendary LP's (2001, The Blueprint and GRODT.)

Agent Zero

04-25-2011, 09:46 PM

I've never seen someonme call Dare iz a Darkside a "classic." It's a 4/5 for me. Whut? The album was released in '92, so i guess you're arguing from '92-'96. Redman is one of my favorites, so im not going to disagree that during that time period he was an elite rapper. But I still don't think he's seeing eminem during slim's "peak."

I think you're selling eminem short saying that a lot of rappers were spitting on his level or close to it during that time period. NOBODY was spitting like he was....classic verse after classic verse. I'd put Jay's career as whole over em's, but not even Jay was seeing Marshall during those years. Nas was not spitting on em's level, nor was mos def or any other elite rapper. I can't think of one wack eminem verse from that time period. If you know one, please share.

Plus, if you factor in commerical success, it will only add to the fact that no rapper had a run liike em did from 99-2003, or no rapper peaked as high.

No hate, but Mos Def has shit in his discography from that era that Eminem couldnt fuck with on his best day. His verses on Respiration, Twice Inna Lifetime & Thieves In The Night (the latter two are easily top five verses all time) are better than anything from Em in that era, Mathematics & Travellin Man are better than any song Eminem recorded in that timeline not to mention BOBS is better than any Eminem album. Eminem from that era was dope but he wasnt the best, just the most visible.

NJ76

04-25-2011, 09:52 PM

I'd take Mos in the same era (theres a dope 6CD compilation of his unreleased work called We Are Hip Hop I think that further backs this point)
or MF DOOM between 99 and 05

NJ76

04-25-2011, 09:53 PM

I aint mad at a Black Thought mention either

Capo

04-25-2011, 11:04 PM

No hate, but Mos Def has shit in his discography from that era that Eminem couldnt fuck with on his best day. His verses on Respiration, Twice Inna Lifetime & Thieves In The Night (the latter two are easily top five verses all time) are better than anything from Em in that era, Mathematics & Travellin Man are better than any song Eminem recorded in that timeline not to mention BOBS is better than any Eminem album. Eminem from that era was dope but he wasnt the best, just the most visible.

No hate, but you're delusional.

I'd take numerous eminem songs over Mathematics....til i collapse, rock bottom, 8 mile road, sing for the moment, etc. Shit, Stan is a better concept song imo than mathematics.

And I prefer The Eminem Show to BOBS, but BOBS>>>>The MMLP and SSLP.